What? Only a little bit fascist? I think Keren's trying to hide her light under a bushel there
I also think that it's pretty unlikely that anyone would lay out a picnic lunch on an open hillside if they thought the people being butchered on the other side of the valley represented any real threat to their safety at all
There are currently 670 comments underneath this clip of espresso slurping slaughter-tourists and I haven't yet seen much in the way of a Hasbara 'explanation' debunking it in any way. So, I'm obliged to conclude that this is on the level
What I have seen, and am starting to see more frequently, is comments which cross the line between Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
Militant Zionism is an ideology which people can choose to accept or reject, regardless of their ethnicity, and it is reasonable to hold people responsible for the ideologies they choose to follow
Pouring abuse on someone just because they belong to a particular ethnic group is pretty hard to justify, morally or logically
To give in to base Human emotion and become a race-hater is to play the Zionist game. It is to reduce yourself to Their level
Keren Levy is an unpleasant piece of hateful trash because she chooses to be one, she wasn't born one.
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56 comments:
I think we have to look more closely at the term "human being".
Is it enough to have a human form/body to be classified as human?or should we use some other yardstick to define the term?
Animals behave in a far superior state of morality than the human race.
Some thing has gone seriously wrong with the human model.
Reminds me of the Israelis around Kryat Shmona (sp?) during the Lebanon invasion in 2006...
@rob
I understand where you're coming from but I'm not going to assume responsibility for this slaughter, just because I'm human, any more than I feel guilty about what the Nazis got up to (in spite of a sustained effort to try and make everyone feel so)
This smacks of Catholic doctrine of Original Sin. Someone pulled me up in a discussion this week for me saying that some, not many people, are born inherently wicked and murderous. That person argued that children come into this world free of malice and it's we grown ups who go to so much effort filing their heads with hate. She's had way more experience with kids than me so I didn't feel qualified to argue back
more here on Gaza war crime tourism.
Fronm my local tv station
Ausflug zum Gaza-Krieg
this is a longer and "better" clip.
fuckin mental stuff.
One of the bizarre ironies about the way the Israelis behave is how, after 60 years of pouring resources into educating people about the sins of the Nazis, the Israelis proceed to behave in exactly the same way
I know as much as I do about concepts such as genocide, ghettos, untermenschen and collective punishment because Jews, often Zionist Jews, have gone to great effort to publicize them.
Fuck it, even the guns on the Israeli tanks are made by the same company that armed Hitler's panzers
Is somebody having a fucking laugh here?
I think some people are born evil fuckers.Some people are turned into evil fucker(like the Ice man Kuklinski.some people are forced to become evil fuckers,,in war or in Military situations.
I think there is no hard and fast rule.
I'm inclined to agree but I'm also inclined to believe that the number of true natural born fuckers is relatively small and not restricted to any one race
Nurture is by far and away a greater determinant
Just my opinion though...
"I'm inclined to agree but I'm also inclined to believe that the number of true natural born fuckers is relatively small and not restricted to any one race"
For sure!I think adverse circumstance's turn most people.But look throughout human history.Cambodia Vietnam Iraq etc etc etc,,the millions slaughtered.When push comes to shove the change from civilized to evil fucker can be quick and extreme.
The Israelis watching the bombing of Gaza,how can you rationalize that?the people have something missing,They are a few bricks short to say the least.
In my experience, there are definite wrong ones, but they are defined by what they lack as recognisably human, rather than the presence of something called evil.
I've got a fair few friends in the head shrinking business and they seem to have a consensual distinction about the difference between the congenitally and evironmentally disturbed.
The Israelis watching the bombing of Gaza,how can you rationalize that?the people have something missing,They are a few bricks short to say the least.
Well, yes
I'd suggest that's a nasty manifestation of the inherent human capacity to believe nonsense
Atheists like to refer to that as 'religion' but they're being far too restrictive in their targeting and willfully ignoring the positive side of spirituality
You don't have to believe in God to believe wicked, hateful nonsense
and just because you do believe in God doesn't automatically mean you hold wicked beliefs
In my experience, there are definite wrong ones, but they are defined by what they lack as recognisably human, rather than the presence of something called evil.
nicely put
people are sometimes born psychically damaged so it seems likely to me that they can sometimes be born psychologically damaged
I´ts my own belief that you are born with your character,,this is of course a Buddhist reincarnation type belief.This is obviously latent and unfolds as it were as you get older.Not only that but character can and is changed by circumstance and environment,,(the 3 wise monkeys spring to mind)
It is not very clear why the three monkeys became part of Kōshin belief, but is assumed that the monkeys caused the Sanshi and Ten-Tei not to see, say or hear the bad deeds of a person. The Sanshi (三尸) are three worms living in everyone's body. The Sanshi keep track of the good deeds and particularly the bad deeds of the person they inhabit. Every 60 days, on the night called Kōshin-Machi (庚申待), if the person sleeps, the Sanshis will leave the body and go to Ten-Tei (天帝), the Heavenly God, to report about the deeds of that person. Ten-Tei will then decide to punish bad people making them ill, shortening their time alive and in extreme cases putting an end to their lives. Those believers of Kōshin who have reason to fear will try to stay awake during Kōshin nights. This is the only way to prevent the Sanshi to leave their body and report to Ten-Tei.
Is that Israeli woman somehow related to Ms Giving Up Liberty for Freedom?
See also Liberty For Freedom?
A fuck. I was trying to stand by my assertion, that these people might not be objectively in danger, but that they experience themselves subjectively in great danger - surrounded by 300 Million Arabs.
But a substantial proportion of Israelis are racist fuckers.
Yet, seeing myself as an anti-racist (and rejecting that any "race" is better or worse than another), I have to say that the same traits are abundantly found in the Palestinian population as well.
I retreat to my class war position, say: "We are all pawns in the hands of the owning class." and hope to find a humanistic position any time soon.
Fuck.
One of the bizarre ironies about the way the Israelis behave is how, after 60 years of pouring resources into educating people about the sins of the Nazis, the Israelis proceed to behave in exactly the same way
I might very likely be wrong, but my impression is that the Israeli state and society didn't so much care for the Nazi atrocities, but much more for the sorrows of the Jewish people.
How many Eichmanns did Israel bring to justice? How many monuments did they erect to the people that fought against fascism ("Righteous among the Nations" excluded)?
The Nazis could have slaughtered Millions of German Communists, Social-Democrats, Christians and Unemployed - and Israel would not have raised an eye-brow after the war.
That is the problem if you reduce Fascism to anti-Semitism - when in fact the problem is racism, or anti-humanism to be more precise.
(Is there such a term as anti-humanism? If not, there is now)
I'm not surprised nor shocked in any way by this video.
Wars and death have always drawn crowds. It's in our nature. At every battle of the American civil war, there was always a third army of cheering spectators having picnic.
It's not an evil israeli vice, it's a Human thing. We're all ghouls.
yeah, I though the same thing
though picnicking on hills overlooking battlefields got less popular as the effective range of the weaponry used grew longer
after all, you don't want to become part of the slaughter you're gawping at do you
the fact that this group of ghouls felt safe enough to indulge, I think, illustrates the one-sidedness of this particular 'battle'
and the comments the spectators are making go beyond mere rubbernecking
That is the problem if you reduce Fascism to anti-Semitism - when in fact the problem is racism, or anti-humanism to be more precise.
I'm not being sarcastic here but I grew up believing that expressions like "Never again" were supposed to be generic, not race-specific
A couple of times I've asked gawpers at the scenes of accidents what the hell were they looking at. I didn't get intelligible answers
It's almost like people, a certain kind of people anyway, go into a kind of trance at the sight of a little syrup and just stare and stare. It's primeval and more than a little scary
I'm not being sarcastic here but I grew up believing that expressions like "Never again" were supposed to be generic, not race-specific
Growing up in Germany, my recollection of how history was mainly portrayed is this: Nazis gassing Jews and the Wehrmacht blitzing around Europe plus adjunct countries. So if you didn't look to close, never-again could have quite a narrow meaning.
And then there are those who took never-again to the other extreme, as the German greens in 1998, who used the German Luftwaffe to bomb civilians in Yugoslavia because someone told them that "Milosevic is the new Hitler".
Never-again can mean anything you want it to mean, it seams to me. Just close your eyes and pretend you know what the world looks like.
The closer I look, the more insane this world gets. Don't look so close and you get clear enemies plus an order you can understand & support.
Asking people to create an independent and universal moral construct of "human" (in the empathetic sense) is actually a supremely unnatural act of intellectual contortion, one that's notoriously difficult to maintain, and that many aren't really capable of.
People are naturally tribalistic, and tend to reserve their empathy for the groups they are personally affiliated with. Her opinion is, for whatever reasons, what is comfortable and convenient for her, and probably one that her social group supports and reinforces.
folks,
I was brought up in Glasgow in the early 70s a catholic.Went to Holy Cross Primary which was a large primary school with nearly 1000 kids.It had an annex building half a mile away which was joined to a Protestant school and was separated by a wall.At break times bottles and bricks would occasionally rain over that wall.On one occasion the "Prody dogs" invaded the rather small annex and smashed the place up including some catholic kids.Even made the local newspaper!
I got my first proper kicking at age 5 and a half.It was at dinner time.An older kid beat the shit out of me,a good old fashioned Glasgow head stomping.The other mothers who were there to collect their kids stood back and watched the kicking.No one intervened whilst yours truly got a proper kicking.
Soooo!human nature has this odd streak in it.Glasgow was very tribal in those days.Rangers Celtic matches!!fuck me pitch battles.
I´m sure if they had access to bombs and guns they would have used them!
meanwhile fast forward to now.
BBC scuppers TV fundraising appeal for Gaza victims
Tags:
The BBC and other major broadcasters have broken a 45 year-old agreement with overseas aid charities by refusing to broadcast their fundraising appeal for Gaza.
The Disasters Emergency Committee launched its national appeal for Gaza today saying the devastation was so great the 12 leading British aid charities felt "compelled to act".
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5568735.ece?Submitted=trueallyc
Asking people to create an independent and universal moral construct of "human" (in the empathetic sense) is actually a supremely unnatural act of intellectual contortion, one that's notoriously difficult to maintain, and that many aren't really capable of.
But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.
The real contortions are where you construct a morality which justifies acts such as israel's enormities.
People are naturally tribalistic, and tend to reserve their empathy for the groups they are personally affiliated with. Her opinion is, for whatever reasons, what is comfortable and convenient for her, and probably one that her social group supports and reinforces.
Well I would say conformist rather than tribal, that's a little essentialist for me.
But it is why so much effort goes into narrowing our culture.
I was trying to stand by my assertion, that these people might not be objectively in danger, but that they experience themselves subjectively in great danger - surrounded by 300 Million Arabs.
Well they certainly picked the wrong place to steal.
Except they have no choice in the matter as they have been chosen by (one version of) their sky god to occupy this land.
I wonder if Lichtenstein feels the same, surrounded by all those europeans?
As for danger, as Ariel Sharon (neé Scheinermann) said:
Arabs have the oil, but we have the matches
The BBC and other major broadcasters have broken a 45 year-old agreement with overseas aid charities by refusing to broadcast their fundraising appeal for Gaza.
Fucking revolting, don't see any sign of fund raising world wide rock concerts either.
here is a great interview.
OBAMA/MIDEAST2: Afshin Rattansi on the Mitchell Choice
former Senator Mike Gravel is spot on.
Listen to Walid Shoebats rants.
one well dodgy fucker.
Walid Shoebat
"Funny" how the reports of The Times on May 17th 1948 about the first days of Israel mirror the current reports. We hear about leaflets being dropped to warn civilians, we hear that Egyptian forces are acting against Zionist terrorists and not Palestinian Jews.
James Petras gives it very straight here
Tribal/ conformist, whatever you call it, people are prone to it and, if God wasn't being used as an excuse, the people who profit from conflict would have people fighting over differences in their haircuts or which games console they use
However, I see plenty of proof that people are inherently capable, in spite of a lifetime of attempted indoctrination, of rejecting hateful paradigms
whilst I have boundless reserves of misanthropy to draw on and, fuck me, is human nature flawed or is human nature flawed, I realised some time ago that, on balance, I must think people are worth caring about otherwise I wouldn't be so upset by what some of them do to each other
sure some people are woh caring about and trying to help if you can but some are just cunts and they will be till the day they die.Like this tosser for instance.
The world is better off with out such characters.
Class interview Mark Regev On The Ropes (War Crimes)
That video is a pretty good example of the contortions you have to go through, lots of blinking, gulping and barely physically controlling himself.
Difficult even for a stone pyschopathic ocker fuck like regev.
I would go there to Gaza in person if I had the resources and didn't have commitments (namely, a partner and children that need me). But since I do have the latter, I'm going to concentrate on that responsibility and leave the aid work to those in a better position.
In this particular case I think these gawkers are in the mindset of watching a public execution, as well as the pyrotechnics of war.
When confronted to death and violence from a safe distance, our instinct is to become voyeurs/spectators.
When confronted to death and violence from up close, especially against a helpless victim, our instinct is to join in.
Underneath than very thin crust of humanity we're apes, and it takes very little for our moral standards to be switched off and do horrible things without feeling any contradictions.
The same shit and the same thinking was going on in Yugoslavia not so long ago.
To me Israel is like a giant Stanford Prison Experiment combined with a sick reenactment of the Warsaw ghetto.
I bet you're a big Battle Royale fan ain't ya? :P
This axe is super lucky!!
Only half the story I think...
But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.
The real contortions are where you construct a morality which justifies acts such as israel's enormities.
Most people would say (not you, necessarily) that it's clear what's right. Speaking as an American, this conceit has been disastrous for my country. The primary role of reason in human society is to justify whatever's convenient. This is how most people 'use' it, not as a tool to consistently apply some artificial moral ideals, or (even more unlikely) seek the 'truth,' but to justify whats convenient for their social group, and, if absolutely necessary, quell any cognitive dissonance with their supposed 'moral beliefs' (normally simply not thinking about it serves the same purpose at a much cheaper cost).
Let me try to explain what I meant when I said that universal moral 'empathy' amounts to an intellectual contortion for most. In America, many crimes are punishable not only by incarceration, but by what amounts to institutionalized rape. There isn't any sympathy for the victims of this policy, because they are prisoners, and therefore unconsciously disqualified from deserving empathy. In sociology, you could say they've gone into the 'out group.'
Thats a normal way for people to think and behave, in my experience. So while you're right that it might be intellectually contorted (that is, inconsistent) from the perspective of one's moral ideals to 'reserve' empathy, psychologically its the most natural thing in the world.
@rob/ paul - cheers for the interview links, both were v. good imho
I haven't watched the latest regev clip yet as I've only eaten a couple of hours ago
Anon
Well I think the ten commandments cover a fair amount of ground if you wanted a handy pre-packed and universal morality.
But I wonder are we confusing a moral code with a justification?
Why do we persist in presenting things as 'the moral thing' to do. Why was our last prime minister forced to fall back on the word of god to justify his unspeakable works rather than spell out the realpolitik?
Perhaps because there is also a limit to our ability to reserve empathy/cognitively dissonate.
Patrick Cockburn: In Israel, detachment from reality is now the norm
All these years on from Sabra and Chatila, has anything changed?
And in the same edition of counterpunch-
p sainath gets it on again
A guy worth reading
parabellum
I thought I'd got used to being depressed, that one by patrick c pushed it a little further.
I'm watching 'the meaning of life' by the intermittently funny python team, they weren't that far off.
If anyone is short of reading material, the latest from the great Keith Snow is worth the effort
I don't like to copy/paste articles, but here's a refreshing piece by Gideon Levy in Haaretz. Although his opinions are minority, it's good to know some people have sense.
We have gained nothing in this war save hundreds of graves, some of them very small, thousands of maimed people, much destruction and the besmirching of Israel's image.
...
Israel's actions have dealt a serious blow to public support for the state. While this does not always translate itself into an immediate diplomatic situation, the shockwaves will arrive one day. The whole world saw the images. They shocked every human being who saw them, even if they left most Israelis cold.
The conclusion is that Israel is a violent and dangerous country, devoid of all restraints and blatantly ignoring the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, while not giving a hoot about international law. The investigations are on their way.
Graver still is the damage this will visit upon our moral spine. It will come from difficult questions about what the IDF did in Gaza, which will occur despite the blurring effect of recruited media.
ah, the Good Israeli
those parallels with Nazi Germany just keep on rolling in
Yes, he does have some common sense and decency
Rob said: Animals behave in a far superior state of morality than the human race.
But they don't, animals would appear to be unaware of morality and operate on instinct, much like Dawkins&co try to say humans do. Some humans seem determined to prove him right.
Paul said: In my experience, there are definite wrong ones, but they are defined by what they lack as recognisably human, rather than the presence of something called evil.
......
But strangely, it's easy to see what's the right thing in 99% of cases.
The fact is it's human to have a capacity for good and/or evil. And a human is supposed to know that, and know the difference, can choose of their own will which to do, and is responsible for the consequences.
As someone else has pointed out, the concept of "recognisably human" is necessarily subjective. I recognise evil-doing as an all-too-human propensity.
@paul:
Yes, the situation in the middle east is quite depressing. Yet I think the best is to develop a better understanding why things happen, why people do what they do. Without a clear understanding, a profound analysis, we end up with the believe that every action is an "unprovoked aggression inspired by unreasoning hate". People have their reasons, albeit subjective and not completely coherent. And if group A hates the people of group B, it is based on a assumption that group B is bad. This assumption may be unconscious, illogical, stupid, subjective and who knows what - yet it is an assumption that is some kind of para-rational process.
An former friend of mine was the opinion that the invasion in Iraq was good for the people there. I guess she thought it was the rational thing to do - as she quite clearly didn't hate Iraqis and wanted them to enjoy a better world. I didn't know how to break through this back then - she entrenched herself in this believe and it left me in despair. When I tried to challenge her believe with what I knew about the death toll she even went so far to say that it was worth a Million death. She didn't dispute the number, she didn't say that these people deserved to die. No, she thought it was a price worth paying because now the people in the Iraq of today live in a better world.
It really frustrated me to face so much ignorance. And it frustrated me that I didn't know how to handle this. Haven't talked much to her, as I really don't know what to say to her. I clearly lack the understanding to reach her somehow with facts. It was as if she said anything not to admit that she is wrong. She believed that she was right (as I believed it for me as well), yet you could clearly see that she hadn't had the slightest clue about Iraq which went further than the evening news.
@Stef
I have to currently endure Tom Cruise playing the Ugly yet Good German, staring at me with an eye-patch from every second (or so it seems) billboard here. I don't like Stauffenberg very much as he never really showed much distance to all the Nazi race-hate and was quite a fan of an authoritarian state, being an "noble" man himself. Yet I know that there was genuine resistance here in Germany, made from all kinds of colours. Even during fascism most, but not all Germans were "evil" - and it certainly is not true for Israel today that all Israeli are some kind of "evil" (while pointing out that I don't believe in the good/evil concept).
Gideon Levy is part of the MSM in Israel, so he has to operate quite clearly in the constraints he finds there. Yet he tries to stay true to working for peace and is a voice of reason, as far as I can see. I think he deserves our support, if we want change the situation for the better. What else can we do, then to support those who work there for a better world - and refuse support to those who act contrary to what we think is right?
All my life there have been books and films reminding me that any society,not just Germany society, my society, not matter how educated or civilized, could easily revert to genocidal barbarism
I agree
Never Forget. Never Again
though I'm under the impression that we are, for some reason, we're supposed to exclude Israel off the list of potential barbarians
Never forget,never again
Except when we are told that It is different this time as it always seems to be.
The message we are actually given is to always forget and do it one more time.
Its a sort of Buddhist reactionary position where we are compelled to live in an unendurable,n endless present, without recourse to the past or future.
though I'm under the impression that we are, for some reason, we're supposed to exclude Israel off the list of potential barbarians
Well, we are told that if WE (as in any western country) use violence to achieve some goals, we are NOT being barbaric - no, we are civilized when we use violence. To paraphrase Vaclav Havel: "Our bombs are humanitarian in their character."
Yes, Israel is special, but not soooo special.
This is the kind of billboard I was talking about:
http://blogs.taz.de/hitlerblog/files/2009/01/dsc03903.jpg
Alas, without the added facial-hair decoration. I think it is a nice idea and I shall try it out myself...
(captcha: mentall)
The English version of the poster is different, with less Tom Cruise as a percentage of the total surface area
which is a blessing
I do like the moustache
I recently treated myself to a couple of packs of these
and keep meaning to spend an afternoon plastering them all over our Underground system but never seem to find the time
but I will
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