Wednesday, August 18, 2010

New and Improved 7/7 Documentaries - now with no added Messiah!!

You know how it is

You spend ages waiting for a new July 7th documentary and then two turn up at the same time...


7/7 Seeds of Deconstruction





7/7 The Big Picture



alternate link here


Of the two, if I had to recommend only one to watch I'd go for Seeds of Deconstruction (there's an interview with the film-maker here) as it contains material that was new to me and also included a stab at presenting some of the confusing eyewitness testimony from 7/7 in a comprehensible form. Having said that, Big Picture is a pretty decent effort, in spite of a couple of ill-judged inclusions which made me wince

Both films share a lot in common, not least their bottom-numbing, but arguably necessary, length.

Both films are pleasingly Messiah-free (and thumbs up to the maker of Big Picture for promising that he will never claim to be the Messiah)

Both films concentrate on the serious flaws in what passes for the Official Narrative and avoid proposing their own competing fairy tales

Both films attempt, and this is the main reason for their length, to present 7/7 within a wider historical and geopolitical context

As such, both films are an indication that at least some British Conspiraloons are learning not to be distracted by bullshit or confuse the issues by injecting some bullshit of their own into the mix. Consequently, I doubt if either is going to be plugged on the Internet to anything like the same degree that that slab of old cock 7/7 Ripple Effect was

No, neither film is likely to achieve any kind of breakthrough in public awareness about the flaws in the Official 7/7 or War on Terror Narratives but they are an encouraging sign that sceptics of Official Narratives are learning to be smarter about how they express and substantiate the reasons for their scepticism

And when someone says to you 'Well, who do you think did it then!?' it really is perfectly OK to say...

'I don't know'

followed by

'but I do know that the official narrative is bollocks'


This response is, of course, useful for more than just War on Terror Official Narratives

.

108 comments:

Anonymous said...

I thought 7/7 Ripple effect was made many valid points.Slab of cock?

And when someone says to you 'Well, who do you think did it then!?' it really is perfectly OK to say...

'I don't know'

followed by

'but I do know that the official narrative is bollocks'


why not just say the government intelligence agencies organised it?

fuckin obvious mate.Or do you have another theory?men from Mars maybe??or the Amazonian Rainforest assassin hit squad?

nah it seems obvious that it was 100%govenment backed,,,your stance is a cop out.

Stef said...

according to 7/7 Ripple Effect the 'Jews' did it

Stef said...

at which point anyone who chooses to stand behind 7/7 RE now puts themself in a position where they can be called upon to defend that assertion, which is poorly supported, rather than the assertion that the official nrrative is bollocks which is rather well supported

and, of course, 77 RE makes some valid points

just like David Icke does just before he starts talking about pan-dimensional, shape shifting space aliens

or Wikileaks does just before it asks you to believe that Bin Laden is still strutting his stuff and Pakistan and Iran deserve a good kicking

Stef said...

7/7 Ripple Effect - a rebuttal and rejection

Stef said...

The fact that the producers of the BBC's Conspiracy Files fucking loved 7/7 RE is also a bit of a clue

Anonymous said...

when I first watched "ripple effect" I had no idea who had made it,,but it made me think right away that the official story(like 911) was bollocks.

The guy who made ripple effect is obviously eccentric or slightly mad and so therefore people will maybe dismiss his documentary as also obviously mad,,who knows maybe he was put up to it by the spooks in anticipation of the conspiracy theories that would inevitably arise after the event which of course happened after 911,,,so old Maud Dib was used to "poison the well?"

anyway fact remains that the official story is bollocks and there are two more excellent documentaries made by two sane people which should give their work more credibility.

Stef said...

When I first watched 7/7 RE I wasn't fully up to speed with Lord Muad'dib's Messianic/ Leprechaunesque/ Attempted Jury Tampering/ Bereaved Family upsetting antics either

What I saw was a film that contained, yes, quite a lot of valid material but strung together in a way that any supporter of the Official Narrative could demolish with ease

Those of us who are sceptical of official narratives should be smarter than that by now

But, of course, what I or Lord Muad'dib would choose to put in a video would be at least partly dependent on our personal motives for making that video

Stef said...

anyway, let's see if all those websites and individuals which boosted 7/7 RE give these two new films a fair crack

Stef said...

"the Amazonian Rainforest assassin hit squad?"

probably not but it could be the Indians

India and Pakistan are hardly best buddies and India certainly has a stake in the perpetuation of the War on Terror

plus there are heaps of Indians in London. I'm sure with a couple of hours googling I could ID some outsourced, Indian-staffed businesses that were involved in the events of 7/7

and maybe the Indians had some dirt on the British government which they threatened to use if the investigation went anywhere

chuck in a quick warning call to the Israeli embassy to throw Truthers off the track and away you go

and if this seems unlikely that only goes to show how good the Indians are at false flag operations. Everyone can name the Israeli overseas intelligence agency but how many can name the Indian equivalent. That's how good they are

Golly, making up bullshit is fun

Stef said...

Taken from the Official 77 RE transcript...

"Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Finance Minister, said that he was warned by Scotland Yard; not to leave his hotel-room, on the morning of 7/7/2005, before the first explosion was reported; implying that they had foreknowledge of the plan. Scotland Yard then quickly denied being the ones who provided the warning, but have not told us who did warn Netanyahu, if they did not. Why was Benjamin Netanyahu warned, but not the British people who pay their wages, and whom they are paid to protect? Was it because it would have spoiled their evil plan, to murder British people, to change the nation’s mind, about British troops fighting in the Middle-East?"

Call me naive but personally I think it's highly unlikely the Israeli defence minister would travel on a rush hour tube train. So what's this reported warning all about?

Or are we supposed to believe that Mossad is in the habit of waiting till the last minute before warning, by telephone, one of its bosses that it's about to blow up London

Unless, of course, cue the music, it was those crafty Indians all along

Anonymous said...

yep definitely could have been the Indians,,,carrying some extra powerful Tandoori chicken carry outs that (due to confined carriage conditions)caused those explosions.Sounds more reasonable than the official fairytale,,I think we should waterboard Power for some answers

Inappropriate one liner said...

or just for the hell of it

Anonymous said...

@stef,

did you watch all of the 7/7 The Big Picture??did you watch the last one?

YouTube - 7/7 The Big Picture 10 - Aswat & Final Conclusion

anyway the film maker concludes a likely scenario is that the police and intelligence media government etc were utterly incompetent in addressing a crime that actualy WAS carried out by the alleged 4!!!

I wrote a comment on the youtube vid and got this reply

"Despite what a lot of people might want to believe, extreme islam and terrorism is very real, so yes it is a likely scenario that some young men were radicalized. The Government haven't proven it (hence the previous 9 parts) but it's not a crazy idea to think it happened. Of course that doesn't rule out MI5 plants grooming them, assistance in pulling it off etc etc. And also please wait until the film is finished, I still have a lot more to say on how I think it went down."

Anonymous said...

this twat works for the gubenment!



"Despite what a lot of people might want to believe, extreme islam and terrorism is very real, so yes it is a likely scenario that some young men were radicalized."

thats government script

stef said...

"did you watch all of the 7/7 The Big Picture??did you watch the last one?"

yup

which is why

a) I recommended the other one

and

b) I mentioned that Big Picture included elements which made me wince

a while ago, I was sitting at a table with a couple of folks who had spent a long time working on 7/7 research and I said something like 'You know, it is possible those 4 guys did do it, extremely unlikely, but possible'

To my delight everyone at the table agreed

And that included a committed Muslim who had the balls to appear on C4 News, at no small risk to himself, to say the Official 7/7 Narrative is bollocks

If anyone spends more than five minutes flipping through this blog it's pretty clear that I'm no fan of official narratives or 'blowback' but until someone comes up with some research which proves beyond reasonable doubt that the 4 alleged bombers couldn't have carried out 7/7, that option remains on the table afaic

stef said...

Having said that, you are right

That is government script

And if matey subsequently comes out with something that claims that the government script is supported by the available evidence I'll join in taking him apart on-line

Stef said...

Whilst not personally being a fan of 'blowback' in the mainstream sense of the word I find it hard to believe that, after years of competiting intelligence agencies stoking up and funding terrorism, in all sorts of convoluted ways through all sorts of convoluted characters, that those competiting intelligence agencies retain full control over what their creations get up to

Stef said...

hmmm, interesting, that's the 2nd time Sinclair's comment has disappeared from this thread

Stef said...

third disappearance

let's try posting it under my name


from Sinclair:

"Islamic terrorism is very real....."

There are those who insist that this is the case (usually connected with the spook/security industries...), however upon closer inspection e.g. of one of the first puported 'Islamic terrorist' groups: the GIA of Algeria, it turns out (as noted in this SIAC hearing, by respected human rights lawyer Gareth Pierce) that ...

"...the GIA, instead of being loosely linked groups of genuine resistance fighters, had become infiltrated, dominated and manipulated by the Algerian regime Securite Militaire and that the terrorist atrocities perpetrated upon Islamic villages and supporters of the FIS ...were not the work of the GIA but of the [Algerian] regime itself in order to discredit and terrorise the opposition."

In addition, from the same SIAC hearing, from a paper produced by the 'Middle East Research Unit for the Foreign Office'.:

"[The November 1995 paper by the MER unit for the FO] said that there was a convincing allegation that the Security Services may have been involved in the setting up of GIA groups, and that it focused attention on the strengths and successes of the GIA so as to depict the Islamic challenge as one of pure terrorism, ... "

The paper continued...
"the [Algerian] Security Services may well have infiltrated GIA cells or used GIA as cover for their own operations. The paper commented that it had not been convincingly proved that the Algerian Security Service had not been involved in the [1995] terrorist attacks in France."

Anon said...

Sounds like the IRA business...

Edo said...

Hey Stef - thanks for the heads up on those. I watched "Seeds of Deconstruction" and thought it was well done, especially in the wider context. I then had a quick look at matey boys' YT channel (the one that did "The Big Picture") and watched some of his other stuff first, then decided to give it a miss! Too much of an Ickean flavour for me...

It still amazes me how little people care, and how easily they'll swallow the government narrative, just for an easy life.
The small noises being made now about Dr. Kelly in the MSM, in my opinion only serve to cement the idea that decent is treated with an iron fist (or in Dr Kelly's case, I envisage that scene from Michael Clayton, where Arthur Edens gets topped).

Glad to see you blogging again mate.

gyges said...

@stef 18th Aug 16:47

"from Sinclair:"

After following and reading some of the exchanges on the other end of the link, I was left wondering how many people had been deeply politicised by the 7th July bombings.

(By deeply, I mean in the Peter Dale Scott sense; rather than the left-right dialetic nonsense).

stef said...

I was chatting with a J7 researcher a few days ago and he said something along the lines of

If J7 had made a film a couple of years ago it would have been along the lines of 'Ludicrous Division'. If forum members made a film now it would be along the lines of 'Seeds of Deconstruction''

'Ludicrous Division' is very much focused on the flaws in the Official Narrative of 7/7. 'Seeds of Deconstruction' attempts to place 7/7 in a wider context

and there's a lot more of that going on today. Concerned individuals on the Internet are moving on from obsessing about the minutiae of how individual crimes are executed and thinking critically about the context of those crimes then moving on from that analysis to start thinking about solutions

That's why there's a lot more talk about responses to the current politcal and money systems, pharma, drug-laden food and other assaults on our material and psychological well-being

Early days though...

and my guess is that there will be attempts the clamp the Internet down before that increase in awareness achieves critical mass

lwtc247 said...

When time pemits, I'd like to throw in a few comments later, on this and the previous post.
I cam here cos I say this and I thought of you...
http://thefrailestthing.com/2010/08/20/the-cost-of-distraction-what-kurt-vonnegut-knew/

stef said...

lol

something tells me those comments won't entirely agree with the position I've been arguing for ;)

off to read the KV link now

I added him to my short list of heroes a few years back as soon as I heard this

Stef said...

and to save you a little time, and to avoid that Groundhog Day feeling...

- My problem with using gold, or paper, or seashells as money is that as long as bastards are in control of its supply they can inflate or deflate to their hearts content. I suggest you watch Still's film and do a little research on the fact that the bankers have been more than happy to peg to gold in the past

- There is prima facie evidence that Israelis had foreknowledge (at least)of 9/11. Not the least the fact that Israeli operatives have appeared on national television and admitted as much. There is biff all evidence that they had foreknowledge of 7/7. I've discussed the reported call to Netanyahu above

Stef said...

As a related aside I should mention that I've been having a protracted discussion with a Muslim friend about Zionism's history of false flag operations. I've been filling him on the history rather than the other way round

If you loosen up the definition of 'false flag' just a little and include groups like the Donmeh, Marranos and Frankists you will discover that there is a jaw-droppingly long history of what I refer to as 'Zionist' false flags, stretching back to the Book Esther

I only use the term 'Zionist' because if I used something like 'Cabbalistic' or 'Zoharite' people wouldn't know what the fuck I was talking about

Stef said...

and in answer to the question..

'Why haven't I referred more explicitly to this material in my blog?'

1. Life is too short to spend my time arguing the toss over a subject that's already done to death

2. Whatever your views on the specific mechanisms and numbers of past holocausts and pogroms they did take place and it's clear that ordinary Jews are just as expendable as the rest of us when circumstances require

3. There is copious evidence that other cultures and groups are just as capable of murderous deceit. We are all born into cultures that include ghastly traditions which we can tap into if we individually choose too

I choose not to become a hater

I also choose not to become so obsessed with one group that I become blind to the fact that they do not have a monopoly on wrongful deeds

Which is a very long way of saying I believe that it's more than possible that 7/7 was not executed by Zionists. And, until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll stick to that

Stef said...

and, yes, I know that anti-zionists often go to great pains to claim that they make the distinction between 'Zionist' and 'Jew' but I can't help noticing an increasing tendency to use the two terms interchangeably

xymphora and aangirfan are the first two examples that come to mind, but there are plenty of others

it's all a bit too 1938 for my tastes

Stef said...

Excellent KV link btw - thx

Stef said...

Oh, and I almost forgot...

4. I've always been a little concerned that if I spend too much time thinking and writing about this stuff I'll end up not knowing my arse from my elbow and will go genuinely crazy. A common afflication for those that do

Take my 'favourite' pop video of all time - Esther's performance of Ray of Light at Live Earth

To all those adoring Muppets who were boogying along they saw nothing more than a high-energy performance of a catchy pop tune

Me, I saw a Cabbalistic ritual of seven (6+1) Illuminated performers, making Golden Dawn salutes and tracing Swastikas in the air, taking place blatantly in front of millions

I honestly appreciate how bonkers that sounds

These days, of course, I can just link to Vigilant Citizen

The Antagonist said...

To all those adoring Muppets who were boogying along they saw nothing more than a high-energy performance of a catchy pop tune

They probably also didn't notice how the high-energy performance was subtly bathed -- illuminated if you prefer -- in red, white and blue, in a not entirely dissimilar way to just about everything else on TV including news, sport, and most importantly of the lot, the prime-time circus fares that are the multitude of (lack of) talent shows.

The Antagonist said...

"If the road to heaven is paved with good intentions, then the avenues of the Third Reich are paved with symbols." - Leon Trotsky, in "What is National Socialism".

Switch 'Third' for 'Fourth', 'Leon Trotsky' for 'The Antagonist' and 'What is National Socialism' for 'Famous for 15 Megapixels', et voila....

lwtc247 said...

;) Stef. You are right.

I will post some of the quite silly things Bill said (I watched the documentary about 2 weeks earlier) but I've not watched the 7/7 ones yet but even if they dont mantion any Israyhelli connections, they could still be good.

stef said...

Bill certainly says some quite silly things, even on a couple of occasions contradicting himself with successive sentences. The core of what he is saying about the nature of what people think money is, and usury, seems reasoanble imho

stef said...

@lwtc247

all this talk of goldbuggery and Israeli false flag operatives inevitably sets me thinking about the now almost omnipresent Max Keiser who, when not shilling for gold and envirofascism, likes to sneak in the occasional surprising comment about Israel

e.g. one minute into this clip from his latest broadcast

The list of wannabe Messiah figures who are merrily pissing in the well is depressingly long

paul said...

I was left wondering how many people had been deeply politicised by the 7th July bombings.

Virtually fuck all, in my limited experience.

stef said...

Mine as well

Though 7/7 did speed those who were already thinking along those lines on their way a little faster

Unsurprisingly, my experience is that it is much easier to conspiracise people wrt subjects which they perceive as affecting them directly - money, food and what is humorously referred to as medicine

stef said...

A close relative of mine is a retired ambulanceman. He is very much of the 'cock up not conspiracy' school of thought

He was on duty in a support vehicle on 7/7 and after being held up at Tower Bridge for hour (a curious story in itself). He was sent over the Tavistock Square

A little while back we were arguing about 7/7 and declared that as far as he was concerned there was no doubt it was carried out by 'four Muslim nutters'

I pointed out that the Official Narrative stated that those 'nutters' used home-made explosives on 7/7 but that was unlikely to be true as casualties from home-made explsoives, as opposed to military grade material, tend to suffer burn rather than blast injuries. I asked him pointblank if he had encountered many burn victims on 7/7

For a moment he looked quite uncomfortable, didn't answer the question and changed the subject

Dissonance is a powerful defence mechanism

paul said...

People have been totally stockholmed over the last few years of economic shock.

The momentary flicker of counter finance sentiment has been neatly fanned into blaming the irresponsible human population (ie people like us but somehow not us).

I mean, how much time did these people really spend in their pre depression lives raging over greek hairdresser's pensions and fretting over bond market sentiments?

Meanwhile the glorious coalitions backers are poring over a butcher's diagram of the exploitable assets left in the economy, and comforting themselves over how every man woman and childs personal 2 trillion (or whatever it is this week) of future imaginary liabilities will be channeled to them.

Those explosions? Its all about the deficit now.

stef said...

yup

stef said...

It's £4.8 trillion this week

about £78,000 for every child, woman and man in the country

stef said...

of course...

1. That hasn't sunk into the collective consciousness yet

2. There's shit loads more to come

paul said...

And its going to cost even more say das policy exchange

Friends, I urge you to place you and your families internal organs on a futures market, by gold with the fiat money you receive, and pay off the organ collectors with the stupendous gains.
I have no interests in these matters, I just want to share this knowledge.

stef said...

Good call!

Get you a crate of beer for that one

Turbulent times call for innovative solutions

My own solution in which I have no vested interest is to open up the exciting world of credit default swaps to ordinary citizens

Imagine the possibilities of being able to take out insurance against co-workers not being able to maintain their mortgages, or that old tramp under the railway arches meeting with an unfortunate accident

what could possibly go wrong?

Wolfie said...

"Part Deux" may be just around the corner :

Hindenburg Omen Inventor Exits From Stocks

stef said...

Forbes, pah!

I get all my stock tips from Tony Robbins

Apparently, if you sign up to his Twitter feed he'll let you know just before everything goes tits up

Wolfie said...

Brings to mind the truism that you know when you are in a "mania" when you are getting advice from your cabbie/shoe shiner. Unusually large number of people predicting a stock/equity collapse this Autumn/Winter - which probably means it won't happen until we all think the threat has passed.

stef said...

If anyone believes that Joe Kennedy got out of the market because he heard a shoe-shone boy giving stock tips I know of some potential-packed Florida real estate they might be interested in

stef said...

unconvincing explanations of when plutocrats choose to dump their holdings aside, Joe public's entry into speculative markets are a key stage in the development of a classic bubble

my best guess is that equity markets are currently being supported by pension funds and other institutional investors being, thanks to near zero interest rates and 'money' creation, forced to chase yield

a mug's game but with all that fiat slushing around what is a boy to do?

something'll probably crash this autumn but, like you say, it might not be equities

stef said...

The Joe Kennedy story is a nice little example of the difference between The Conspiracized and those who do not suffer from a "crippled epistemology"

Prior to having my epistemology crippled that's the kind of narrative I took at face value as an illustration of the kind of undirected, stochastic way the Human World works. People like Joe K. made money because they were shrewd enough to read the tea leaves and anticipate the flow of events

Now I'm firmly of the belief that people like Joe Kennedy control the leaves, the cup, the teapot, and the entire tea production and distribution network

They're shrewd alright, but not in the way I once thought

Wolfie said...

I would be more inclined to point towards a treasury crisis.

Link

“I do not think U.S. Treasuries are safe in the medium and long run,” Yu, a member of the state-backed Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, wrote. The “scary trajectory” of budget deficits and a growing supply of U.S. dollars put their value at risk, he said.

Especially as it’s the state owned financial institutions that have orchestrated their summer rally.

Anonymous said...

In a similar vein, I used to have some vague idea that financial wheelers and dealers just had a good head for figures and were quite possibly decent chaps who just happened to have got very rich.

Knowing your high esteem for fund managers, Stef, I heard a quote from one of them recently which went roughly as follows:

"It would be nice if some Chinese consumer place blew up and their valuation went down a lot because I can assure you, we’d be there with a shovel."

stef said...

@wolfie

well quite

though, of course, we could debate what exactly 'state-owned' means

@anon

a real manager wouldn't wait for a chance explosion

Anonymous said...

LOL. So he was one of the decent ones then!

stef said...

these things are all relative

lwtc247 said...

Sorry, but this may raise an eyebrow..
My blog has been frozen due to them having some non-defined 'concern' over some of the content in my blog. I notice EDO's blog has gone. http://edo-theinsoundfromwayout.blogspot.com/

First the came for the Communists...(?)

stef said...

I've already linked to it in an earlier comment but Cass Sunstein's paper gives an indication of a probable future

afaic, if They strike this blog down it will become transformed into pure energy that will manifest itself in all sorts of unlikely places

It'd probably be a blessing

lwtc247 said...

Don't worrry Stef. I don't tink your blog'll go down.

But if it did, may the blogosphere go down with it.

Edo said...

Hey LWTC247 - I've taken my blog down temporarily. Nothing to worry about mate.

lwtc247 said...

@ Edo. Good. Glad to hear your blog hasn't gone down as a result of TSTB (The Scum That Be). And this morning, re: my frozen blog, wordpress wrote "It shouldn't have done that". They gave an apology.

But I still think they've already come for the 'Comminists'.

stef said...

As a rule, offending blogs and websites don't get disappeared by TSTB. They get congnitively disrupted

Keelan said...

Hey there, this is the creator of "7/7 The Big Picture" - thanks for posting it up - I think it's great that there are still people willing to look in to this; so much so that 2 films come out at once!

In regard to the "likely scenario" quote from the movie, I understand people's concerns with this and I may remove it from any recuts; a better phrase would have been "possible scenario". My point is that the alleged bombers STILL could have been involved. To completely dismiss that idea doesn't make for an open investigation. If there was an inquiry or reinvestigation would you dismiss anything that pointed to the alleged bombers?

I have several scenarios in my head - all point to some form of government involvement. I mean if Britain allowed radical muslims to operate, colluded with some of the clerics and caused the very conflicts that lead to radicalisation (interfering in muslims lands) whose fault is it? I'd still say it was the western establishment's.

I was trying to be as level headed as possible, maybe I swayed a bit too far in to playing Devil's Advocate. I could have easily gone completely batshit in the other direction and said because a bus poster had the word terror on it, that it must be an inside job.

Anyway thanks for watching. If anyone wants to contact me you can reach me through my WideShut website.

Stef said...

Keelen

Thanks for taking the time to post here

As you would have probably picked up, I personally am all for keeping investigations as open as possible

I'm not even against possible scenarios, provided they are 'sandboxed' away from ojective accounts of events. It's a dangerous game though and, as discussed, can put yourself on the defensive and allow focus to be moved from the gaps in the Official Narrative to gaps in your own.

If we want to encourage people to think critically about Official Narratives then we must expect our own to be subject to the same quality of scrutiny

On top of that, there are countless people out there whose heads are already full of shit thanks to Hollywood-style perversions of history and I can't think of any good reasons to add to the general pool of ignorance.

Stef said...

OK, maybe except Spartacus ;)

Stef said...

... and thanks and congratulations on putting the effort into making your film

Stef

Stef said...

Of course, a couple of years after making the inspirational historical bollocks that is Spartacus Kirk Douglas went on to make the unpleasant historical bollocks that is Cast a Giant Shadow

We conspiranauts have so very few heroes

Stef said...

Sometimes I feel like that character from Goodnesss Gracious Me who claims that virtually everything is Indian.

only with Zionist

Though not as bad as some of the folk who pass by here ;)

Stef said...

btw Keelan

are you sure you're not the Messiah?

Keelan said...

Not the Messiah, "just a very naughty boy".

Anonymous said...

hey Keelan.I enjoyed your documentary except for the conclusion.My guess is that the 4 stooges were Patsies.I´ve no idea what role they played,,maybe they were just "face" if you know what I mean.
When you said""Despite what a lot of people might want to believe, extreme islam and terrorism is very real, so yes it is a likely scenario that some young men were radicalized. The Government haven't proven it (hence the previous 9 parts) but it's not a crazy idea to think it happened."

I thought I was reading a statement from a government spokesmen.

Stef said...

@k

lol

aren't we all

@anon

The problem with the patsy scenario is those 'confession' videos. You know, the confession videos that don't include any confessions and which emerged from Internet weeks after 7/7, round about the time even the newspapers were discussing the fact that the alleged bombers' profiles and reported behaviour didn't stack up with the Suicidal Muslim Fanatic story

Those videos are absolutely key in blinding people to the weaknesses in the Official Narrative and I wish I could somehow translate that nagging, not quite right, feeling I had when watching them into something like hard evidence

Keelan said...

@anon

I understand, but the rest of my quote was..."Of course that doesn't rule out MI5 plants grooming them, assistance in pulling it off..."

When we speak of patsies it doesn't just mean somebody getting set-up. A patsy can have intent to do damage but their strings are being pulled at the same time. The idea may have been given to them and they might have been assisted by informants. Like the first WTC bombing.

The seed may have been planted by the Iraq war (illegal invasion; government's fault) - they then might have been groomed by intelligence informants like Aswat and Hamza (the government allowed them refuge so it's the government's fault) - they then went to Pakistan and there Al Qaeda (which is a dubious organization) might have egged them on to make the videos and to take part in the bombings. Then dubious groups like SITE edit the video with lots of imagery and release them at the right time.

See where I'm going with this?

I think it's a scenario that they may have done it, but that doesn't mean there isn't another layer behind the scenes. The high-grade explosives is a big point for me.

Look at the underwear bomber. He may or may not have had the intent to do what he did...but he was ALLOWED on the plane.

And of course my film is still not fully completed - I don't know what the final conclusion should be. I don't know for certain what happened, I don't think anyone does.

Stef said...

there is (currently) little evidence in the public domain that places the alleged four bombers at the scenes of the explosions

and a state pathologist has said that they certainly weren't carrying, or standing next to, the devices when they detonated

for me, one of the most jaw-dropping admissions was the fact that the alleged bombers' ID was scattered along the length of the train carriages

the suggestion that they pushed their way through crowded rush hour trains, scattering driver's licences and bank cards on their way, so that they would be identified after the blasts is just plain nonsense

I'd love to see a State Broadcasting Corporation re-enactment of that particular part of the Official Narrative

I was sceptical of the Official Narrative before that news. After it, I know that the Official Narrative is anchored on a lie. I also realised an impartial person couldn't even be sure the alleged bombers were even on the trains when the bombs went off

Anonymous said...

my own feeling based on the evidence I´ve read so far is that the 4 "bombers " did not plant or set of any bombs.
I think they were manipulated to fit the profile of radicalized Muslims in the fake war on terror,,just like Mohammed Atta and his merry band of radicals on 911.
My money is on intelligence service op from start to finish.

Anonymous said...

What were the explosives used? - lwtc247

gratuitous one liner said...

nanothermite

Stef said...

@anon

if the 4 alleged bombers were manipulated inro fitting the profile of radicalized Muslims it wasn't a very good job (with the exception of the previously mentioned and peculiar videos).

and, yes, it very possibly was an intelligence service op, but then you'd have to starting asking yourself whose intelligence service and via what intermediaries or contractors and away you go with the fairies speculating on a hypothesis

@lwtc247

at the time of 7/7 commentarors were suggesting the damage was consistent with factory produced, milltary grade explosives (high velocity blast, few burns)

subsequent official pronouncements have suggested DIY material was used

my own take is that if DIY stuff was used establishment voicepieces wouldn't be so mealy mouthed about it

Anonymous said...

well due to the highly organized nature of the psy op common sense tells you the UK government intelligence black op dept were behind it.Old Power has to know as he was carrying out simultaneousness scenarios crisis management exercises.

"asking yourself whose intelligence service and via what intermediaries or contractors and away you go with the fairies speculating on a hypothesis"

we will never know the details.EVER.Same story with 911.
Those in the know can and do and will continue to get away with organized mass murder to further certain agenda and there is nothing me or you can do about it.
We can however be awake to the situation and have the satisfaction of knowing we were not fooled by it.
This sets us apart and aloof from the masses of ignorant citizens out there.

Stef said...

I understand what you;re trying to express when you say 'apart and aloof' and I frequently feel like banging my head on my keyboard when I see some of the preprogramming that people are happy to regurgitate

but

I certainly won't quibble the 'apart' side of things but the 'aloof' bit leaves me feeling a tad uncomfortable

That's how 'They' feel about the general populace and I for one do not wish to end up thinking like Them

The difference between Them and Us is that we want everyone to share our understanding (well I do anyway) and I think there has to be a better word to describe that feeling than 'aloof'

Though it escapes me right at this moment..

Stef said...

as a related aside, I've been chatting with a couple of folk about the subject of 'alienation'

like I said a couple of posts back, whatever misguided or plain evil people may have done in the name of Marx, he did have an interesting and dare I say illuminating way of looking at things

Anonymous said...

"Nanothermite" - that was a good answer to a serious question. Well done. Nobody knows what the explosives were and nobody knows s**t abt 7/7, apart from some who pretent they know that didn't happen on 7-7.

How solid.

Inspires confidence amongst those of the mindset that did 7-7 to pull off another one.

I'm curious... did J7T do a FOI re: the explosives?

Were any of the 'witnesses'/survivors/slain tested for explosive residues, inc the Rachen North dovette?

Where were the residues analysed?

lwtc247

gyges said...

@stef

"my own take is that if DIY stuff was used establishment voicepieces wouldn't be so mealy mouthed about it "

DIY stuff is very difficult to make without killing yourself.

Imagine learning to drive ...

from a book ...

and every time you stalled the car, it blew-up and killed you.

This is what happens when you try to make homemade explosives.

If bomb factories were commonplace, what happened to Terry Jupp would occur more often than not.

stef said...

Thanks to a miss-spent youth pouring acid on toilet paper, bubbling acetylene gas in silver nitrate solution and mixing up iron filings and powdered aluminium instead of playing football, under the watchful eye of the School Paedophile, I have a healthy respect for DIY explosives and never made more than a few g's at a time

The problem is, any DIY compounds with a kick have this annoying habit of blowing-up if you so much as cough next to them

That hypothetical car trip down to Luton on 7/7 would've been a tense, sweaty affair

stef said...

"However, the explosive ignited unexpectedly and Mr Jupp, who worked for the MoD for 25 years, suffered almost 90 per cent burns.

The heat from the explosion, which blew out all the windows of the building in which he was working, was so intense that it melted his hair to his head and charred grass up to 25ft away."


In summary

- Whoever carried out 7/7 didn't blow themselves up making or transporting the explosives

- The damage and injuries to the victims of 7/7 is consistent with blast rather than burns

So, given the evidence currently available in the public domain, an impartial observer would conclude that the explosives used on 7/7 were probably factory made

which would punch another hole in the Official Narrative

stef said...

@LWTC247

Of course, forensic tests would have been carried out on 7/7. I don't know if anyone has gone to the effort of submitting an FOI. I certainly haven't. Have you?

The J7T mantra has always been "Release the Evidence"

This is grounded on the fact that even basic questions such as "What explosives were used?" have not been answered

And, yes, it is depressing to think that an atrocity which has been used to justify so much state wickedness can take place with less public scrutiny than a train crash

Anonymous said...

No I haven't submitted one, but I'm very surprized J7T didn't. Is there a reason they didn't do such a thing? It rather fortifies my point: as one can rule bugger all in, one cannot rule bugger all out either. That isn't to say keep doors open that don't warrant being open before anyone starts.

Please be careful about saying things like "Of course, forensic tests would have been carried out on 7/7" because there are a lot of things that should have been done vis a vis 7/7 but didn't. There is no "of course" - same for 11/9/01. There's a lot of hot air and press statements saying xyz happened some of which turned out to be horse manure.

And "DIY material" gets no further than the open question "what explosives were used". I believe identification of the explosives would rapidly enable a more comprehensive version of just wtf happened that day.

I simply cannot believe that the accused managed to make enough explosives (in fact I find it more hard to believe they made ANY explosives) successfully the first time around in a house. Where did they get the raw materials? Where did they get the practical experience (no marks awarded for saying "Pakistan" I'm afraid)? How did they process it and where did they get the equipment to do such a thing (again "bath" scores zero). Where did they get the detonators from?

I’m afraid waiting for the lovely government to apply enough spin to just scrape the plausibility barrier (as would be ONLY thing it would ever do) is rather unsatisfying.

How’d you make your acetylene gas and where's you get your silver nitrate from? Was it ‘extra-curricular’? - lwtc247

stef said...

I didn't say J7T didn't file an FOI I said (off the top of my head) I don't know

I will ask next time I'm chatting with one of the active group members

Anonymous said...

I realise you didn't say J7T didn't file an FOI, but if they had, I'm confident you would know about it - certainly with regards to the outcome.

I think it should be done. I suggest J7T do it as they have experience in submitting FOI 'requests'. If they won't do it (please let me know) then I could learn how to do it. - lwtc247

stef said...

"How’d you make your acetylene gas and where's you get your silver nitrate from? Was it ‘extra-curricular’?"

c. late 1970s school 'Chemistry Club' aka a thinly disguised opportunity for the school paedophile to groom students after hours

...before the days of namby-pamby, health and safety, politically correct, nanny state, crypto-commie style restrictions on school paedophiles and adolescent boys' perfectly healthy interest in High Explosives

Acetylene-producing carbide headlamps were also freely available back then

A couple of years back I was in Italy for New Year's and was somewhat surprised to bump into a group of 10 year olds using small chunks of carbide as bangers

Anonymous said...

A point can be made here that these materials are sourced (from school), and despite sounding like the same point, they were actually available in that setting.

Can this be said of ANY explosive which might have been used on 7-7 and if so, what about the other hard questions about the explosives?

e.g. if TATP was used, where did they get the distilled water from (or de-ionized) to stop the commonly occurring transition metal ions in tap water from catalysing the decomposition of the explosive.

J7T read your blog. Could one of them give the nod that they will submit relevant FOI's about the explosives? - lwtc247

ver word = enomplop

stef said...

"I'm confident you would know about it"

don't be that confident, I'm little behind wiht one or two issues

Bombs were used on 7/7. Bombs were allegedly not used on 9/11. A forensic analysis of 7/7 would have been carried out. We just haven't been told the results yet

and, yes, the nature of the explosives used is key

and, for the sake of clarity, I do not engage in or endorse DIY explosives

Anonymous said...

"the nature of the explosives used is key" - an excellent reason for J7T to FOI about it.

stef said...

"and despite sounding like the same point, they were actually available in that setting."

we're talking a few g's of product

to start knocking up a few kgs would require an attention-drawing volume of feedstock

but this is drifting off subject, however the ingredients could be sourced the product would be dangerously volatile and burn rather than blast

Anonymous said...

"to start knocking up a few kgs would require an attention-drawing volume of feedstock" Indeed. One for that to happen, one can imagine in the months afterwards, the school could boast a nice new shiny chemistry lab.

Once the relevant FOI's about the explosives reached conclusion, it would be interesting to probe all the official statements about the supposed explosives and on what basis these statements were released.

Btw, what the hell are our glorious leaders doing about a proper 7-7 inquiry? - lwtc247

web bot willie said...

you do realise this conversation is probably sending some uderground conputer somewhere crazier than a sack of ferrets?

Anonymous said...

nothing a few diversionary posts wont cure.

Anonymous said...

"the nature of the explosives used is key" - an excellent reason for J7T to FOI about it.

Also an excellent reason for anyone interested in finding out the answer to submit their own FOI about it.

And, when they receive a response, maybe they can pass the information on to J7T for publication.

Amazing how folk still expect someone else to do all the grunt work and answer all the questions for them.

gyges said...

"e.g. if TATP was used,"

If I were going to do something like this, the last thing I would make is TATP.

I'd go for PETN. But this assumes a decent cooling system and access to detonators.

Maybe all of this talk of TATP is diversionary nonsense so that would-be bombers kill themselves during the preparation of said?

stef said...

and let's not forget the curious police treatment of the hire cars at Luton one of which reportedly was loaded with nasties like this

using controlled explosions to detach detonators from stable, commercial explosives is one thing

setting off explosions next to PETN/ TATP would have an altogether different outcome

Stef said...

oooh, the comment eating pixie is back...

from Bridget

Re: J7T FOI into explosives.

Yes of course, we submitted requests to the MPS, the Home Office & the FEL, we were knocked back with the trials of the 3 'helpers' used as the excuse and now the Inquests. This was the basis of our requests:

Freedom of Information Request Reference No: 2009070001964

I write in connection with your request for information which was received by the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) on 07/07/2009. I note you seek access to the following information:

On 22nd May 2007 a Freedom of Information request was submitted to the Home Office for the final reports of the Forensics Explosives Laboratory into the explosions in London on July 7th 2005.

A reply was received from the Home Office on 28th June 2007, reference T16655/7. This stated that the forensic reports could not be released because of the trial of those alleged to have conspired with those alleged to be responsible for the explosions. The Home Office did, however, give the following assurance in that reply:

"This information will be put into the public domain following the upcoming trial of 3 defendants charged as a result of the continuing police investigation into 7/7 ... "

At the conclusion of the re-trial, when it became clear that there would be no further re-trial, the request for the forensic reports was re-submitted to the Home Office.

The Home Office replied (reference FOI 10250/T19006/8) stating that it did not have the reports, and suggested that instead the request should be submitted directly to the Metropolitan Police Service.

In fulfilment of the government's commitment to place this information into the public domain, I therefore request the final forensics reports into:

· the explosion on the Circle line train between Liverpool Street and Aldgate on 7th July 2005
· the explosion on the Circle line train between Edgware Road and Paddington on 7th July 2005
· the explosion on the Piccadilly line train between King's Cross and Russell Square on 7th July 2005
· the explosion on the number 30 bus in Tavistock Square on 7th July 2005
· the contents of the Nissan Micra found in Luton train station car park on 12th July 2005
· the contents of the Fiat Brava traced to Jermaine Lindsay which was removed from Luton train station car park some time between 7th July 2005 and 12th July 2005
· the contents of the flat at 18 Alexandra Grove, Burley, Leeds
· the contents of the bedsit at 111 Chapeltown Road, Leeds


DECISION

Having located and considered the relevant information, I am afraid that I am not required by statute to release the information requested. This letter serves as a Refusal Notice under Section 17 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (the Act).


J7 have requested that this information is released into the public domain as evidence to the Inquests.

The relevant threads on FOI can be read on the J7 forum here and the issue of the types of explosives used here: The nature of the explosives: from C4 to powdered masala spice

Stef said...

Yes of course...

Not that I ever doubted. I'm jamming away on a very small device and couldn't access the J7 site

Off to buy a lovely new iPad now

or not

probably not

Sx

Anonymous said...

"Also an excellent reason for anyone interested in finding out the answer to submit their own FOI about it." - Indeed, if anyone could give tips on how to maximise the chances of making a successful FOI, such info wouldn't be met with a sour face.

"And, when they receive a response, maybe they can pass the information on to J7T for publication." I'm sure they would

"Amazing how folk still expect someone else to do all the grunt work and answer all the questions for them." – I’m sure apologies will be offered for the chutzpah of asking questions of groups at the forefront of trying to get answers to the events of 7-7. - lwtc247

Anonymous said...

Bridget and Stef… thanks for the info relating to the FOI on the explosives. Being personally unawares of the machinations of our great political system, does any grunt out there know how the refusal can be challenged or how one can find out which 'statute' it was that prevented the request from being fulfilled? Because I think they are talking bollocks. - lwtc247

Stef said...

10/10 for the nice tie-in to the original post

Bridget said...

More on where the MPS are on answering any 7/7 related FOIs:

The investigation into the deaths occurring as a result of the explosions on 7th July 2005 is an on-going criminal investigation. Under section 30, FOIA information held by a public authority is exempt information if it has at any time been held by the authority for the purposes of any investigation which is conducted by the authority and in the circumstances may lead to a decision by the authority to institute criminal proceedings which the authority has power to conduct.

There are currently no proposed or outstanding criminal prosecutions. However, the Inquests arising from the deaths are due to be heard in the autumn of 2010. Over the coming weeks and months a number of public pre-inquest hearings will be taking place and the MPS will be providing extensive disclosure and assistance to the Coroner.

The Exemption I have claimed requires me to conduct a Public Interest Test which I have outlined below

Public Interest Test

Reasons favouring disclosure

This is a high profile case which resulted in extensive loss of life of members of the public. It is arguable that the public should be informed of all the circumstances that lead to these events. The effective prevention and detection of terrorist related crime is a matter of public interest. Provision of the requested information indicates that the police have conducted their investigation in a thorough and efficient manner and allows for transparency. Allowing the nature and extent of the investigation to be made public demonstrates accountability on the part of the police. There is already a significant amount of information already in the public domain and publication of further information could dispel rumour and mis-information.


Continued in next comment due to character limits.

Stef said...

I'm sure the inquest will sort everything out and fill in the remaining gaps in the Official Narrative

OK, maybe not that sure

and I've got to say, the fact that so few people appear to be concerned with this material, or very much else of any significance, really does demonstrate that lacing our food with MSG, aspartame, oestrogen substitutes, aluminium, mercury and all that other good stuff really has been worth all the effort

Stef said...

More mysterious comment- munching...

from Bridget

Reasons favouring non-disclosure

The investigation is on-going and it is important that nothing is disclosed that could prejudice any possible future proceedings. There is a reasonable expectation on behalf of members of the public who provide information to the police that such information will not be released publicly for a purpose unconnected to a criminal prosecution or other judicial proceedings. To publish information obtained and retained through the exercise of police powers or through co-operation of individuals could inhibit the ability of police service to obtain information in future investigations as it could discourage potential witnesses in criminal investigations from assisting the police. To release information that was obtained as part of a criminal investigation might reveal to others how investigations are conducted and are likely to be conducted in the future. This might enable criminals to conceal information to prevent it being identified by the police and thus make the law enforcement role more difficult. The publication of sensitive intelligence or other material could prejudice other investigations and thereby compromise the safety of the public.The publication of information that could reveal operational methodology could have a prejudicial impact on the investigation of crime generally.

Balance Test

The public interest is in favour of non-disclosure in relation to evidence held by the MPS. The information is held to ascertain whether a person should be charged with an offence. Further there remains in this case, no reasonable expectation on behalf of those that have provided information to the police, that such information would be released publicly for a purpose unconnected to a criminal investigation or prosecution or other proceedings.

Lady Justice Hallett has been appointed to sit as Deputy Assistant Coroner to hear the inquests arising from the deaths occurring on the London transport systems on 7th July 2005. The Coroner will shortly be making decisions about a number of matters which include whether the Inquests will be resumed; whether to sit with a jury; and what evidence she intends to adduce in the course of any hearing. The MPS is currently in the process of providing disclosure of relevant evidence to the Coroner. Information should not be published by the MPS which may prejudice the Inquest proceedings. The MPS will be fully co-operating with the Coroner by providing disclosure to her. It will be a matter for the Coroner to decide what material she proposes to disclose to properly interested persons and what evidence she intends to adduce at the hearing and thereafter possibly publish through her website